… or is it a holiday camp?
Recently I posted an image of an Iranian torture chamber in which an inmate was being tortured for the pleasure of various Muslim officials (see above), including the ex-President of Iran, Muhammad Khatami (president between 1997 and 2005). This inspired a poster/commentator to say that such a thing is no worse than what has happened at Guantanamo Bay.
Another commentator said that there are rumours that the image is a fake; after which, my opponent repeated that suspicion; though he hadn’t mentioned it before it was mentioned by someone else.
|The Leftist multimillionaires of the pop band, Rage Against the Machine, raging against Gitmo.|
Ariel Riveros Pavez: This also happens at Gitmo under US Jurisdiction Tyrone, so I disagree. This doesn't only happen under Islamic theocracies and that ain't condoning it either.
Let's try being less one eyed about such things.
English Defence League Extra (EDL) [page & blog]: Ariel, try responding to what I actually wrote instead of levelling vague claims such as "no organisation has a monopoly on torture". What, for instance, about sharia law and its use of torture? (As in stoning to death, crucifixion, acid-attacks, honour-killings, etc.) Another difference between Gitmo and Iran and other Muslim countries is that TORTURE IS OFFICIAL in those countries. Not so at Gitmo or the US even if it does and did happen. And what sorts of torture are you referring to at Gitmo and what are the numbers? Every year, hundreds are killed for apostasy and blasphemy in Pakistan alone. How many Muslims were killed at Gitmo?
Ariel Riveros Pavez: This post is spurious and tantamount to misinformation and rabble rousing. What a distinct displeasure to see it in my feed.
English Defence League Extra (EDL) [page & blog]: Ariel, aren't you "rabble rousing" about Guantanamo Bay, Ariel? Where's the misinformation? The fact that I disagree with you doesn't amount to misinformation. Also, did you know the photo MAY be false before an earlier poster raised that possibility? The image is not that relevant anyway. Such things happen in Iran. That's a fact that’s been widely documented.
Ariel Riveros Pavez: And I repeat, no organisation has a monopoly on torture as was mooted in this thread.
English Defence League Extra (EDL) [page & blog]: Ariel, why should we believe Gitmo ex-prisoners anyway? These people are all Islamists and most of them are terrorists. Why would they NOT lie? Also, on most stats, 50% or MORE of those Muslims released from Gitmo have gone straight back into Islamoterrorist activity. That doesn't sound much like innocence to me. Again, all the fuss about Gitmo is ideological/political, not moral.
English Defence League Extra (EDL) [page & blog]: Ariel, this did NOT happen at Gitmo! Nothing as extreme and as blatant as this. Power is abused in all societies and by all states, yes. But when it happened at GITMO - all hell was let loose across the world! We never stopped hearing about it, as your post shows. Not so with events like this which happen all the time is Muslim countries. Also, torture like this is endemic in Muslim countries because it is written into both tribal culture and Islam. It is written into Sharia law. What happened at Gitmo was small-time compared to the torture chambers of Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Gaza, the West Bank, the Sudan, etc. We hear LITTLE about Islamic torture and TOO MUCH about Gitmo not because the latter is worse, but for ideological reasons - that's all.
Ariel Riveros Pavez: No organisation has a monopoly on torture, Tyrone.
When you Google ‘Guantanamo Bay – Wikipedia’, you’ll be very surprised about how long the entry is. It’s massive! It’s over 18,000 words long. That is much larger than the Wikipedia entries on President Assad’s killing of up to 40, 000 fellow Muslims in the Battle of Hama in 1982 (only 1,730 words). It is about four times larger than the entry of the Jordanian killings (‘Black September’) of up to 10,000 of Yasser Arafat’s PLO in 1970/1 (4,481 words). There is no specific entry on the recent killings (in the last 15 years) of up to 20, 000 Kurds - killed by the Turkish army and state. And no entry at all on the massive persecution, often the killings, of Christians today in many Muslim/Islamic countries.
But what’s worse than all this, at least in terms of Wikipedia entries, is that the article on the 9/11 attacks only warrants around 10,000 words – that’s 800 words less than the article on the Guantanamo Bay detention center.
All this is no surprise. Guantanamo Bay is a massive industry. It’s literally an industry - a money-making scam - for the Leftists and Left-Liberal s who are involved in the very many “human rights groups”, “campaign groups” and whatnot involved in uncovering the Worst Crime & Institution in Human History.
Primarily their obsession with Gitmo is ideological and political. Their monomania has virtually nothing – often literally nothing! – to do with their moral disgust or their outraged consciences. Ranting on and on and on about Gitmo is but a means to smack the US government in the face as well of furthering various ideological/political ends and causes. The very fact that Gitmo is actually so small-scale in the vast scheme of things shows this to be the case. (It parallels, very well, the obsession, often by the very same people, with the Israel-Palestine conflict.)
*) Let’s just cite a few facts and statistics.
i) Only eight people have died at Gitmo, some of them by suicide.
- Is that the story of Amnesty International’s supposed “gulag of our times”? In the Communist/Soviet Gulag, tens of millions died and hardly anyone was ever released.
ii) In 2011, there were 240 detainees. Today there are around 166 detainees.
- Is that a Gulag? Is it even a massive crime considering the wider geopolitical and military context of the imprisonment of these people?
iii) Gitmo was set up in 2002. By 2004, 200 detainees had already been released. By 2011, 600 had been released.
- Then again, the opponents of Gitmo will stress the fact that this implies that there must have been many innocent people who had been detained. However, these very same people would also have stressed the fact that if no one had been released then the legal status of the detainees would have been fatally flawed. In other words: “Why has no one been released?”
iv) According to many reports, up to 50%, some say higher, of those released have gone straight back it fighting US/Western forces and/or terrorism.
- This leads you to conclude that at any one time at Gitmo, well over 50% of the detainees must, in fact, have been guilty of either terrorism and/or fighting US/Western forces. I say well over 50% and I mean that. If 50% of detainees have gone back into fighting Western/US forces and/or terrorism, we also have to realise that many guilty parties would not have gone straight back into fighting and/or terrorism. I would say, then, that up to 98% of the detainees are probably guilty.
- Then again, their Leftist and Left-Liberal defenders will now change their tune and ask: “Guilty of what?” They will then say that these people “have a right to defend their countries”, etc. So at least that’s a clear and big jump from the supposed innocence of Gitmo detainees to their “right” to bomb and kill people on behalf of their countries, people and and/or Islamic beliefs.
This, again, show that the obsession with Gitmo “injustice” and “torture” is not moral but ideological and political.
*) It's a fact that if enough monomaniac Leftists rant on about a given subject - many of the rest of us will then think that there's got to be something to that ranting. But what if it's nearly all ranting and political/ideological bias - as with Gitmo?
As Goebbels said: "If you repeat a lie enough times, people will believe it." It need not be a lie. It could just be a meme. That very excessive concentration on a given subject, as with every misdemeanour of Israel, leads people to believe something truly bad must be going on. Thus these Leftist and Left-Liberal agitators end up achieving exactly what they set out to achieve - changing the "political consciousness" of the people. Or, at the least, they are successful in many cases – but certainly not all